#geeknights | Logs for 2012-11-13

[00:15:19] <aria> Being a lordblade is fun!
[00:15:35] <aria> I tried to guide a dude through Anor Londo as a blue phantom
[00:15:44] <aria> but not warm him about the mimic in the basement
[00:15:50] <aria> Didn't work
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[00:48:42] <Bronzdragon> http://darksoulswiki.wikispaces.com
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[02:58:15] <aria> Nine, where do people Pvp?
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[03:19:40] <nine> aria: No fucking clue.
[03:19:51] <nine> Xbawks is filled with stupid consolefags.
[03:19:56] <nine> I cannot think like them.
[03:20:47] <nine> But if they do as the great PC master race did before them, try Oolacile Township.
[03:20:52] <nine> /SPOILERS
[03:27:46] <okeefe> Looks like Rym just set up a GS:GO server.
[03:30:38] <Bronzdragon> =O
[03:30:54] <Bronzdragon> I wish it wasn't 4:30....
[03:39:31] <GauntletWizard> I am so proud of my hotkey for joining teampeak
[03:42:23] <aria> Some dude invaded us
[03:42:28] <aria> Wrath of the gods on a bridge
[03:42:31] <aria> pushed tarkus off
[03:42:34] <aria> healed like 5+ times
[03:42:36] <Bronzdragon> (tiny bridge)
[03:42:38] <aria> and then rolled off
[03:44:32] <aria> Also god damn how many wrath of the gods do you get?
[03:47:14] <aria> Fucker pyromanied me while bowing
[03:47:18] <aria> also healed thrice
[03:47:27] <aria> and totally poised through my greatsword
[04:13:14] <Bronzdragon> Good night, Geeknights
[04:13:20] <aria> ^
[04:13:20] <Bronzdragon> May your day be okay or better!
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[12:38:40] <Apsup> Yo.
[12:39:27] <Apsup> Ubuntu
[12:39:28] <Robobuntu> oo-BOON-too
[12:39:35] <Apsup> :]
[12:43:22] <Apsup> Boring channel no one online/active. Except Robobuntu. You are cool 10 ways.
[12:43:23] <Robobuntu> you can't cool 10 ways!
[12:43:32] <Apsup> :]
[12:45:48] <Apsup> Must be bores when I entertain myself with 6 Robobuntus
[12:45:49] <Robobuntu> 6 robobuntus, can't lose!
[12:50:26] <Banta> all the robobuntus?
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[14:01:00] <djfooboo> Didn't realize GN had an IRC until I heard an episode. Looks like another place to idle
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[14:02:23] <bronzdragon> Welcome to not saying anything, djfooboo.
[14:03:45] <djfooboo> Hooray! Off to Uni anyway ;)
[14:03:52] <bronzdragon> Ciao
[14:04:04] <Apsup> I just came form uni.
[14:04:12] <Apsup> If uni is short for University.
[14:09:10] <Apsup> Yay, I got myself a copy of "Characteristics of Games" now I can read it and be an elitist about games.
[14:09:32] <bronzdragon> Pff, as if you need others to tell you how to be elitist about games
[14:09:40] <bronzdragon> I know more about games than that writer could EVER know
[14:09:50] <bronzdragon> I mean, he's a writer, for crying out loud, what can HE know?
[14:10:07] <Apsup> Three writes actually.
[14:10:41] <bronzdragon> ... I see, they plan to out-quantity me, eh?
[14:10:47] <bronzdragon> Well, MY KNOWLEDGE IS BETTER
[14:10:51] <bronzdragon> SO PUH
[14:11:27] <Apsup> About three pages bibliography, pretty good. Small part of it websites, not so good.
[14:12:10] <bronzdragon> Eh, if it's a small part, that's fine
[14:12:38] <Apsup> It's small. Maybe it's for the casual crowd.
[14:13:13] <Apsup> Sadly it's not a book in my field and I'm not a real scientist, so I can't do the real test of quality.
[14:13:47] <bronzdragon> Stupid science, being smarter then you
[14:13:54] <bronzdragon> You should ask someone who knows
[14:13:58] <bronzdragon> Then gift them the book?
[14:14:00] <bronzdragon> I dunno...
[14:14:14] <Apsup> You know what's the real test of quality for academic book?
[14:19:58] <bronzdragon> .. how much you learn from it?
[14:23:10] <Apsup> If it's book in your field, you look at the bibliography and if there's your publication(s) in the list. It's good.
[14:24:22] <bronzdragon> ...
[14:24:25] <bronzdragon> I see
[14:27:09] <Banta> I always liked it when a teacher gave us copies of their book that was "required" for class.
[14:40:57] <creamsteak> rawr
[14:41:44] <bronzdragon> Oh hi creamsteak!
[14:44:14] <creamsteak> Ohithar!
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[14:56:29] <Banta> moar people?
[14:59:22] <aria> Oh hey
[14:59:24] <aria> New person!
[14:59:27] <aria> Welcome to #geeknights
[14:59:50] <aria> Wait, two new persons! =O
[15:00:08] <bronzdragon> Quick Look: Borderlands 2: Captain Scarlett and Her Pirate's Booty
[15:00:34] <bronzdragon> (Ignore the above)
[15:26:38] <apreche> can't believe channel still running
[15:29:30] <bronzdragon> Indeed
[15:30:12] <aria> Sorta...
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[16:50:54] <bronzdragon> Hai guys
[16:56:42] <Apsup> hai
[16:57:15] <bronzdragon> HOW IS YOUR LIFE, HUMANIOD LIFEFORM?
[16:58:11] <aria> Hey Apsup, we played with a guy who used the Wolverine claws and was actually doing pretty good. You didn't see that coming, did ya?
[16:58:27] <bronzdragon> ... You are quick at showers.
[16:58:43] <Apsup> Only thing I don't see coming is the spanish inqusition.
[16:59:30] <bronzdragon> Boom!
[16:59:34] <bronzdragon> Jokes!
[16:59:34] <bronzdragon> Good ones?
[16:59:36] <bronzdragon> not here.
[17:00:08] <aria> Didn't shower
[17:00:26] <Apsup> Hey, Monthy Python references are offcisially the highest tier of bad jokes.
[17:17:31] <ProfPangloss|Work> Apsup: Wrong, Portal
[17:17:43] <ProfPangloss|Work> Oh
[17:17:49] <bronzdragon> Assume the party position!
[17:17:57] <ProfPangloss|Work> Unless you mean "highest tier" as in "least bad"
[17:18:03] <ProfPangloss|Work> In which case sure, Monty Python
[17:18:20] <ProfPangloss|Work> And there are still good Monty Python jokes
[17:18:28] <ProfPangloss|Work> Have you met my brother Sven? He is a famous dentist.
[17:33:14] <apreche> Wenn ist das Nunstück git und Slotermeyer? Ja! Beiherhund das Oder die Flipperwaldt gersput![1]
[17:34:14] <bronzdragon> I
[17:34:20] <bronzdragon> I'm pretty sure that's not actual German.
[17:34:36] <apreche> oh, shit
[17:34:39] <apreche> you have no idea what that is, do you?
[17:34:47] <bronzdragon> No?
[17:34:49] <apreche> http://www.youtube.com
[17:34:50] <bronzdragon> Should I?
[17:34:53] <apreche> YES
[17:35:01] <bronzdragon> Ooooh
[17:52:56] <aria> Fucking hell. First match I have today, and its against a hacker >_>
[17:53:06] <Banta> ???
[17:53:14] <Banta> CNGO?
[17:53:24] <aria> =P Dark Souls.
[17:53:41] <Banta> ah
[17:54:16] <aria> Some dude had maxed out stats. My OP greatsword barely took health off him and he had infinite stamina
[17:55:00] <Banta> that's a lot of stamina
[17:55:52] <aria> I'm sure it was actually 999999, but he kept swinging his sword =P
[17:57:21] <Banta> so not infinite, but super fast stamina regen
[17:57:52] <Banta> sounds like a pain
[17:58:40] <aria> Nah, just so much that he couldn't deplete it. You can get pretty fast regen legit, but you still need to take a break between swings to let it charge up.
[18:08:28] <apreche> speaking of hacks, I came up with a way to make a hack-proof turn based game
[18:08:37] <apreche> with no server
[18:08:41] <Banta> oh really?
[18:08:50] <apreche> yep
[18:08:59] <aria> I bet someone in this channel could break it in a day =P
[18:09:02] <aria> But let us hear
[18:09:02] <apreche> you send your move to all other players
[18:09:03] <Banta> mind sharing?
[18:09:17] <apreche> and their software "votes" whether the move is legal or not
[18:09:27] <aria> thats how it works currently..
[18:09:37] <Apsup> Scott, I'm late, but that's one of my all time favorite Monthy Python sketch.
[18:09:46] <apreche> it is top 5, easily
[18:10:14] <apreche> yes, so now think about this
[18:10:30] <apreche> imagine a real-time game merely as thousands of small turn-based games
[18:10:43] <apreche> so you use a speed hack in CS
[18:10:52] <apreche> in turn 1 you are at spawn, at turn 5 you are at the other spawn
[18:10:57] <aria> See, people still get around it in RTSs
[18:11:00] <apreche> all the other clients will vote that that is not a legal move
[18:11:20] <aria> Also, anything close to RTS level security would make every FPS lag terribly
[18:11:21] <apreche> and they can do this voting/checking with spare CPU power, if available
[18:11:49] <apreche> and over time, they can get enough statistical data to determine if someone is the cheating.
[18:12:04] <apreche> and then just ban the fuck out of them permanently.
[18:12:20] <apreche> If I had an online game, I would have free mode and no-cheat mode
[18:12:28] <apreche> no-cheat mode would require valid credit card and always-online
[18:12:36] <apreche> but is not required, so not DRM evil
[18:12:39] <apreche> but if you cheated
[18:12:48] <apreche> we would not only ban you from no-chet mode permanently
[18:12:51] <apreche> we would fine you
[18:12:57] <apreche> like pro sports fines people
[18:14:23] <Banta> hm
[18:14:47] <Apsup> "i didn't cheat, but your system said I cheated, your system is faulty I want my money back."
[18:15:19] <aria> Did you think this trough?
[18:15:32] <aria> Everyone would report everyone who was winning to be a cheater
[18:15:43] <apreche> it's not a manual system
[18:15:44] <aria> and then get them banned and charge them a fee
[18:15:48] <aria> I know
[18:15:49] <apreche> it's a statistical system
[18:16:01] <aria> Just send a billion "he cheated" packets
[18:16:05] <apreche> and if someone hacked only the part of their game that reported the cheating
[18:16:16] <apreche> we could staistically detect that this one person is reporting the opposite of most people
[18:16:21] <apreche> and then THEY would be cheaters
[18:16:31] <aria> What if someone just has a better CPU then everyone else?
[18:16:38] <aria> And therefor is the only one to report shit?
[18:17:03] <apreche> i think you are overestimating the CPU-time required to make these calculations
[18:17:20] <aria> What if its a 2v2, and your team player also either cheats, or shares hacked resources with you, and therefor your game assumes no cheating
[18:17:47] <aria> but the other team because they can't see your hacked resources, assumes cheating
[18:18:50] <apreche> you're making a false assumption about the checks for cheating
[18:18:52] <Apsup> One problem I see that it only works with obvious hacks. Speedhacking should be trivial to find out, but something like wall hacks less so if the person using the hacks is not obvious about it.
[18:19:08] <apreche> wall hacks would be non-obvious
[18:19:23] <apreche> but
[18:19:31] <apreche> in the long term one of two things would happen
[18:19:54] <apreche> one is that you would stand out as having a kill-rate and headshot rate even better than the pros.
[18:20:00] <apreche> two
[18:20:18] <apreche> you aren't doing that much better because you are holding back, and that's not really a problem
[18:20:32] <aria> If you're cheating, you're probably not all that good at the game, so your K/D will only look like a regular good player
[18:21:01] <apreche> now, let's say you use the cheat sometimes, but not other times
[18:21:13] <Apsup> number one means that you support that good or extremely lucky players are accused of cheating. And not only accused, those accusations are dealt with punishments.
[18:21:41] <aria> I'd never play the non-free mode =P
[18:21:45] <apreche> if someone is good or lucky
[18:21:55] <apreche> whatever they are doing will be within the rules of the game
[18:21:55] <aria> Even if there was a problem with hackers, I'd just move to a different game
[18:22:08] <apreche> to use that RTS example
[18:22:21] <apreche> we know that one minute in the game, the max resources it is possible to have is 500
[18:22:37] <aria> But you always get 500, every minute, exactly.
[18:22:37] <apreche> If someone has 600 resources 1 minute into the game, then that's cheating
[18:22:53] <apreche> ok
[18:22:56] <apreche> is that cheating?
[18:23:17] <apreche> the pros will also get 500 in the first minute
[18:23:19] <apreche> because they know how
[18:23:26] <Banta> it would depend on how they got those extra hundred
[18:23:46] <Apsup> That's again trivial case (Scott's one, not aria's) but what about person who removes fog of war and uses that to gain edge.
[18:24:02] <apreche> why is it possible to remove fog of war?
[18:24:23] <apreche> data about what is under the fog should not be sent to other players.
[18:25:05] <apreche> remember, the overwhelming majority of players will have no hacks whatsoever
[18:25:08] <Apsup> cheats yo.
[18:25:36] <apreche> so anyone who does anything weird will appear as a huge statistical outlier given enough collection and analasys of the right data.
[18:26:06] <aria> How does deal with lag?
[18:26:11] <Apsup> I have not cheated myself or gotten into how people cheat in games so I'm just theorising here.
[18:26:38] <apreche> lag is lag, lagging will not cause you to do things outside the rules of the game.
[18:27:24] <aria> Oh it will
[18:27:38] <aria> In the game I'm playing right now, you get backstabbed from miles away because of lag
[18:27:46] <apreche> that game is just broken
[18:27:48] <aria> My game would obviously report cheating
[18:28:06] <aria> Is CS, you miss dudes because of lag all the time
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[18:28:46] <apreche> games now seem to be getting that right
[18:28:49] <apreche> they used to get it wrong
[18:28:58] <apreche> it used to be on my screen I moved down the hallway entirely
[18:29:02] <apreche> but on your screen, I'm still halfway down
[18:29:13] <apreche> then when the network catches up, I'm all the way down
[18:29:20] <apreche> so it looks like I teleported halfway down the hallway
[18:29:24] <apreche> now what games are doing
[18:29:32] <apreche> is you just get sent back down the hallwya where you came from
[18:29:46] <apreche> that's the annoying snap-back you have when you are lagging
[18:30:41] <aria> If Im host. And I like winning, so I make everyone stand with their face in front of my gun, and it looks like lag. Would your cheaty system catch that?
[18:31:03] <apreche> yeah, because everyone elses computer would be reporting differently.
[18:31:08] <apreche> remember, no server
[18:31:10] <aria> Also, in pretty much every game with good players, people exploint cheats left and right
[18:31:17] <apreche> no host
[18:31:22] <bronzdragon> I'm not sure if it would...
[18:31:50] <bronzdragon> I mean, cheat detection currently is "Is anything except this authorized code running" and "Does it look like cheats when a human looks at it"
[18:33:01] <apreche> here's an easier way to think about it
[18:33:10] <apreche> everyone has a recorder running that records every detail of the game
[18:33:18] <apreche> those recordings are all sent into the authority
[18:33:31] <apreche> obviously if yours doesn't match, you are in deep shit
[18:33:40] <apreche> if it does match, and you were doing something bad, we also caught you
[18:34:01] <apreche> now instead of a central authority, everyone sends their recordings to the other players
[18:34:07] <apreche> everyone is checking all the recordings all the time
[18:35:34] <Apsup> Wouldn't that get kinda heavy? For the computers?
[18:35:45] <apreche> computers are so powerful
[18:35:59] <Apsup> Running the game, sending and recieving extra data and reviewing the data.
[18:35:59] <apreche> open a game
[18:36:01] <apreche> then look at your CPU usage
[18:36:09] <apreche> and it doesn't have to be real-time
[18:36:11] <apreche> and perfect
[18:36:18] <aria> punkbuster lisence is expensive. If you honeslty think your system would work, just make it and sell it. If it actually does work, you won't ever have to work a day again
[18:36:28] <apreche> it just needs to be enough to build up enough data to be staistically significant.
[18:36:33] <apreche> over time
[18:36:52] <apreche> that is true
[18:36:53] <Apsup> Also Scott, where were you this morning/last night, not playing CS?
[18:36:53] <apreche> I should make a demo
[18:36:58] <apreche> sleeping?
[18:37:04] <Apsup> Bad person.
[18:37:05] <apreche> rym set that shit up when I was in bed
[18:37:44] <Apsup> Rym should have called you and be like "Scott get your ass of your bed and play some CS!" That's what true bro would do.
[18:37:59] <apreche> he did, I was like no
[18:38:00] <apreche> sleeping
[18:38:07] <apreche> also, I'm in NS mood lately
[18:38:20] <apreche> but it is crashy, so I could rock some CS tonight after the show maybe
[18:39:00] <ProfPangloss|Work> Apsup: That was a pretty damn good game last night
[18:39:07] <ProfPangloss|Work> 'Cept for the pub kiddies
[18:39:09] <apreche> how many people did you have?
[18:39:12] <apreche> oh, pubs
[18:39:16] <apreche> how many non-pubs did you have
[18:39:22] <ProfPangloss|Work> For most of the game, it was either 5/6 or 6/6
[18:39:23] <Robobuntu> 6 or, can't lose!
[18:39:34] <ProfPangloss|Work> Maybe 3 or 4, but most of them stayed quiet.
[18:39:43] <apreche> 3 or 4 pubs, or non-pubs?
[18:39:48] <bronzdragon> I never know what to say in an FPS...
[18:39:56] <ProfPangloss|Work> Pubs
[18:40:00] <apreche> you say what's going on
[18:40:01] <bronzdragon> "There's a guy over there! He's shooting at me... Yeah, I'm dead now"
[18:40:08] <bronzdragon> Does that help?
[18:40:14] <ProfPangloss|Work> "@schezar What is it with CounterStrike players telling everyone over and over that they're high?"
[18:40:15] <apreche> it helps if you are more specific
[18:40:17] <ProfPangloss|Work> That sums it up
[18:40:18] <Apsup> It was quite nice. I think I even did decently at 5am.
[18:40:18] <ProfPangloss|Work> Okay so
[18:40:18] <apreche> two guys going bridge!
[18:40:25] <apreche> sniper in the west tower
[18:40:30] <ProfPangloss|Work> Each team had about 2 or 3 FRCF people, for the majority of the game
[18:40:35] <apreche> everyone go bomb site A!
[18:40:39] <ProfPangloss|Work> Started with 2 on each team, the rest were bots.
[18:40:46] <apreche> their whole team is camping B
[18:40:55] <ProfPangloss|Work> Later in the game, the bots were all gone, since one or two more FRCF people joined either team, and the rest were pub kids
[18:41:17] <apreche> secret stairs! (aztec)
[18:41:57] <bronzdragon> Do you need to shout SECRET STAIRS! every time you take them?
[18:41:58] <ProfPangloss|Work> There was like no chatter last night, kinda disappointing
[18:42:04] <bronzdragon> Because I would.
[18:42:07] <Apsup> I tried to be chatty.
[18:42:12] <apreche> rym loves all talk, which I do not
[18:42:19] <apreche> so that removes all game-related talking
[18:42:20] <ProfPangloss|Work> He didn't say a word last night, Iunno
[18:42:24] <Apsup> Also Rym was chatty when I was on same team with him.
[18:43:07] <Apsup> All talk works when you are not playing too seriously. You get to trashtalk and lover the enemy's morality.
[18:44:08] <ruffas> i like the idea of lovering their moral buch better than lowering it
[18:44:27] <apreche> the problem with all talk, even in non-serious games
[18:44:33] <apreche> is that I am still trying ot win
[18:44:44] <apreche> so I have to type anything in team chat that I don't want the other team to hear
[18:44:46] <apreche> some people don't see it
[18:45:02] <apreche> and it means I have to not play while typing
[18:45:11] <apreche> so I can't do it while the match is comencing
[18:45:36] <bronzdragon> You get someone else with a 2nd keyboard to bang it out for you
[18:45:40] <ProfPangloss|Work> Oh shit, new game music bundle
[18:45:40] <ProfPangloss|Work> http://www.gamemusicbundle.com
[18:45:46] <bronzdragon> (Easier when you control the server)
[18:45:56] <Apsup> But didn't you say that CS is just about individual's skill of head clicking. How does team chat affect to that?
[18:46:04] <ProfPangloss|Work> Spelunky, Retro City Rampage, Dear Esther
[18:46:04] <ProfPangloss|Work> Etc
[18:46:05] <bronzdragon> Oh, dude, that'd be an awesome way to mess with people's heads!
[18:46:20] <apreche> if everyone is a master of head clicking, other skills make the difference
[18:46:32] <apreche> but head clicking is usually what matters most because not everyone is a master
[18:46:36] <bronzdragon> Also, coming up behind someone is a free head-click.
[18:46:44] <bronzdragon> If you can, you wanna do that.
[18:47:09] <apreche> and in rare cases, head clicking can be overcome
[18:47:12] <Apsup> Disagree! Other skills matter even when everyone is not master.
[18:47:33] <bronzdragon> Or if some people are master, and others are not?
[18:47:34] <apreche> yes, if EVERYONE is not master, other skills matter also
[18:47:48] <apreche> but if there are two head click masters, and they join the same team
[18:47:54] <apreche> what can the othe team do to win?
[18:48:18] <apreche> considering that on average the master will kill two before dying
[18:50:34] <apreche> well?
[18:50:54] <bronzdragon> Maybe set a trap for the headclicker?
[18:51:01] <bronzdragon> With flashes and molotoves?
[18:51:01] <apreche> what kind of trap?
[18:51:06] <Apsup> Then teams are obviously unbalanced, there should be one master on both teams, not two in one.
[18:51:28] <bronzdragon> Sure, if one team is better then the other, One is going to win more
[18:51:52] <Apsup> Dota 2, CS:GO, NS2, Guns of Icarus Online, too many multiplayer games I wanna play. And let's not even get into single player stuff.
[18:52:07] <apreche> so the Yankees and Mets should trade some players when they play because teams are unbalanced?
[18:52:49] <apreche> the point is that head clicking matters A LOT
[18:52:50] <Apsup> I'm thinking of matchmaking game, not a pre-made team game.
[18:53:19] <apreche> it matters to a degree that the other skills are severely or completely diminished when the head click factor is high
[18:53:57] <apreche> some made up maths here
[18:54:29] <apreche> CW = (HC*500) + (TW) + (CT*.5)
[18:54:44] <apreche> CW = chance of winning, HC = head click skill, TW = team work skill, CT = clever tricks
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[18:55:52] <bronzdragon> I would argue that HC is only 20 or so
[18:56:02] <apreche> it's made up maths
[18:56:12] <bronzdragon> you're close though
[18:56:14] <apreche> th epoint is that if you have head click skills, you can overcome teamwork.
[18:56:17] <bronzdragon> And the maths is your point...
[18:56:37] <apreche> oh no, ambushed by three dudes!
[18:56:43] <apreche> head shot two and damaged the third! now what?
[18:59:59] <Apsup> If you are ambushed by three dudes and they can't get you killed, then you deserve to win.
[19:00:29] <apreche> but what skill(s) determined whether or not you were killed, or they were killed?
[19:00:34] <Apsup> Obviously the ability to kill enemy is important and having it can make big difference.
[19:00:48] <apreche> they already ambushed, so they have an advantage
[19:01:04] <apreche> but you agree that fast and accurate clicking can overcome that advantage?
[19:02:04] <Apsup> Well yes. If the ambusing players are that horrible players then teamwork does jack shit.
[19:02:06] <bronzdragon> Depends on the skill gap
[19:02:22] <bronzdragon> If they littearlly cannot shoot you, even givin minutes, then yes, you could overcome them
[19:02:25] <bronzdragon> Easily
[19:03:12] <bronzdragon> the problem is not "Can this happen" but rather "How quickly does this happen"
[19:03:23] <apreche> it happens a lot
[19:03:34] <apreche> could be cheating
[19:03:49] <apreche> but every game I play of CS there are the top-tier Michael Jordan level players who determine what team will win.
[19:03:52] <apreche> then there are the people like me
[19:03:53] <apreche> then the nubs
[19:03:58] <apreche> and grayscale in-between
[19:04:29] <apreche> which is why I'm actually very curious about cheating
[19:04:34] <apreche> since when I played at PAX on LAN
[19:04:40] <apreche> I hosed everyone down and was #1
[19:04:50] <apreche> where I have a very high confidence there was no cheating
[19:04:55] <apreche> as we were all using PAX-provided PCs
[19:05:06] <apreche> so are all those god-like players cheating?
[19:05:21] <bronzdragon> It is possible that the pax community isn't the same as the online comunity
[19:05:33] <apreche> that is also possible
[19:05:38] <bronzdragon> That they simply suck more, because the barrier to entry at PAX is way lower
[19:05:42] <apreche> I'm no good, but random dudes at PAX weren't that good either.
[19:05:44] <bronzdragon> (Just sit down)
[19:05:59] <bronzdragon> But (possibly) they haven't played CS at all
[19:06:17] <bronzdragon> Maybe they wanted to try it out, after hearing about it a bunch. something like that would be my guess.
[19:06:24] <apreche> I can't guage how good I actually am because I haven't played against people I know are good in a guaranteed non-cheat environment.
[19:06:45] <bronzdragon> that's the rub, isn't it?
[19:06:55] <apreche> now let me really blow your mind
[19:06:59] <apreche> ever seen the quake playing robot?
[19:07:12] <bronzdragon> ... no?
[19:07:50] <apreche> someone setup a webcam to look at the monitor
[19:07:55] <apreche> and robot arms to manipulate the keyboard and mouse
[19:07:58] <apreche> and programmed it to play quake
[19:08:08] <bronzdragon> that sounds... pretty cool
[19:08:11] <apreche> so it's not cheating
[19:08:13] <apreche> but it's god
[19:08:26] <apreche> robot arm isn't even necessary
[19:08:39] <apreche> you could just have a device that is a usb mouse/keyboard with a webcam
[19:08:53] <apreche> so a box with a camera lens and three usb cables coming out
[19:09:05] <bronzdragon> But physical movement is always going to be slower
[19:09:13] <apreche> exactly
[19:09:25] <bronzdragon> So that's not playing by the same rules
[19:09:28] <apreche> it is
[19:09:34] <apreche> the only rules of a video game are the code
[19:09:49] <bronzdragon> That's what you say
[19:09:59] <apreche> it's like the vanilla coke that played Yugi-Oh
[19:10:15] <bronzdragon> But the developers of Quake did not know of robots playing quake via USB when they make the game.
[19:10:27] <apreche> the makers of chess didn't know about Deep Blue
[19:11:38] <bronzdragon> But Deep blue plays chess as intended
[19:11:40] <bronzdragon> So it's fair
[19:11:58] <apreche> how od oyu know the intent?
[19:12:02] <apreche> you only have the code
[19:12:16] <creamsteak> isn't there a line in the "book" about them not addressing whether the intent of the rules or the implementation of the rules in a computer game are the "rules" and anyway most of those rules are second (or further abstracted) order rules. :P
[19:12:39] <creamsteak> I think they specifically compare it to basketball rules changes
[19:12:48] <creamsteak> that said I still agree with apreche on this because I'm pedantic
[19:12:58] <apreche> yes, I am also pedantic
[19:13:33] <apreche> yes, the game is still called basketball after the rules are changed
[19:13:35] <bronzdragon> What if the back of the box said "requires keyboard to play"?
[19:13:40] <apreche> but it's not the same game as basketball before the rules changes
[19:13:42] <bronzdragon> Would that change it?
[19:14:22] <apreche> interesting thought, is every piece of text in the game material part of the rules...
[19:15:21] <Apsup> apreche: What about situations where organizers of tournaments of video game implement custom rules, not bound by the code. Like not being allowed to have netgraph on, or no molotows in CS:GO? Those are not rules from the code, but they are the rules of the tournamet, is that tournament valid?
[19:15:37] <apreche> yeah, the tournament is valid
[19:15:42] <bronzdragon> Isn't that a meta-game on top of a game
[19:16:06] <bronzdragon> You play the tournament game (where you lose if you break the rules) and also the game of CS:GO (where youdo not)
[19:16:40] <apreche> we played blind monkeyball and trash-talk mario tennis in college
[19:17:44] <apreche> it's just not "pure" monkeyball
[19:18:00] <apreche> like college hockey, NHL hockey and Olympic hockey are all different
[19:18:04] <apreche> but they are all ice hockey
[19:18:20] <apreche> it's more like ice hockey is a category of games than a game
[19:18:36] <Apsup> Enough theorizing I go play.
[19:19:05] <Apsup> Correction. I get to wait in line.
[19:19:15] <Apsup> (Haven't done that enough already)
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[19:43:34] <bronzdragon> So many words
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[19:44:47] <bronzdragon> Or rather, joins/quits
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[19:45:06] <nine> Fix it bronzdragon.
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[19:45:35] <bronzdragon> imposiburu!
[19:45:46] <nine> Pessimist.
[19:46:09] <apreche> if we add up all the time people have spent sitting at computers waiting for them to do things
[19:46:14] <apreche> i wonder how much time that has been
[19:46:22] <apreche> because that is what I am doing right now
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[19:48:30] <bronzdragon> Dito
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[19:54:18] <nine> apreche: get a job
[19:54:59] <apreche> I'm doing my job. Tell computer to do things, wait for it to do things.
[19:55:01] <apreche> This is part 2.
[19:55:21] <nine> yeah yeah.
[19:55:23] bronzdragon is now known as Bronz-AFK
[19:55:28] <nine> Implying that's not every job in the US.
[19:55:38] <nine> Do nothing for 80% of the time you're paid for.
[19:55:42] <nine> GENIUS!
[19:55:55] <nine> get a job, get vacation time as a result.
[19:57:28] <Apsup> Well that was one sided game.
[19:58:12] <aria> Why does everyone in this game heal during PvP, and why did they change it so that you can't punch them while they heal?
[19:59:10] <apreche> wait, invincible while healing?
[19:59:20] <Apsup> Seriously I have no idea why anyone would play Dark Souls for the PvP. Maybe in controlled setting, but just in the wild.
[19:59:24] <apreche> that makes the strategy pretty obvious
[19:59:25] <aria> Nah, but it gives the benefit of the doubt during lag
[19:59:50] <apreche> well, then you want to time your heals for when the strongest attack is about to hit
[19:59:57] <apreche> so not only do you heal, but their big attack does nothing
[20:00:28] <Bronz-AFK> Aria has this messed up sense of etiquette that everyone in Dark Souls must follow
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[20:00:36] <Bronz-AFK> If you bow, you must not heal during the fight
[20:00:40] <apreche> ooooooooooooooh
[20:00:41] <Bronz-AFK> You must not team up with other phantoms
[20:00:46] <apreche> that's like in Jedi Knight 2
[20:00:52] <Bronz-AFK> You must allow the other time to recover
[20:00:53] <apreche> when people would bow in online lightsaber duels
[20:00:54] <apreche> and I would stab them
[20:00:55] <Bronz-AFK> yes, like JK2
[20:00:57] <apreche> while they were bowing
[20:01:06] <Bronz-AFK> Aria would get super pissed at you.
[20:01:20] <apreche> if you don't play to win, do not complain that you are not winning.
[20:01:24] <Apsup> The only way to make PvP in that anyway serious is to implement meta rules. Thus I don't bother, for me it's just color on top of PvE stuff.
[20:01:42] <Apsup> Like getting randomly invaded and killed in most brutal manner.
[20:01:45] <apreche> if game be broken, don't play it
[20:02:11] <Apsup> I don't play it for the PvP which is broken, the PvE singleplayer and co-op stuff is great.
[20:02:39] <Apsup> I don't even think that PvP balance was the most important point in Dark Souls developement.
[20:02:41] <apreche> ok, so don't play the broken part
[20:02:45] <Apsup> I don't.
[20:03:16] <apreche> ok then
[20:04:37] <Apsup> Sometime it could be interesting to test my skills against other players, but it would require controller enviroment with maybe some meta rules on top of the game to keep things reasonable. But it's not something I care for now.
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[20:10:19] <aria> I'm in the painted world
[20:10:23] <aria> Its meant for pvp
[20:10:38] <aria> people in here at the community pvp level should also follow the community rules
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[20:11:19] <aria> Also, when people don't bow back, I either just leave
[20:11:35] <aria> or if they try to backstab me while I bow, I usually kill them (cause then they're not used to the pvp)
[20:12:16] <aria> But once you bow back, thats like saying "I have read the community rules and follow them"
[20:12:35] <aria> then you shouldn't heal, because the invader can't heal
[20:12:38] <Apsup> Wan't klin PvP place, or is that the wild west of PvP where you might get honor, or asshats.
[20:12:52] <aria> Well--
[20:12:54] <apreche> Rym is loving that Pooh/paper jpg
[20:13:03] <aria> Klin has the problem of high level people actually trying to beat the game
[20:13:12] <aria> so you don't want to get in the way of their fun
[20:13:32] <aria> Painted World was dev intended Pvp area, so we made it the new pvp area =P
[20:13:53] <Apsup> it was? Who said that?
[20:13:59] <aria> From
[20:14:10] <apreche> Painted World? Is that home of Rainbow Road?
[20:14:11] <aria> Thats why it has a bunch of areans, and an optinal boss
[20:14:19] <aria> Yes
[20:14:48] <Apsup> apreche: I see. Not sure what's it meant to imply, for example in his comment in Homestuck thread. His comment has humor value without the image and the image doens't add really any humour value.
[20:15:15] <aria> Also this red phantom just now was a pretty cool dude. He invaded me before I unlocked the front gate
[20:15:29] <aria> so since the fucking wheel skeletons wouldn't bother him, he just went ahead and opened it for me
[20:15:34] <aria> and waited for me to take out all the spear slugs
[20:15:34] <apreche> when Rym finds something hel ikes
[20:15:42] <Apsup> Painted World sounds so much better than it is. It's a cool place, but how cool it wold have been if it really looked pained in some way.
[20:15:42] <apreche> he beats it like a dead horse
[20:15:47] <apreche> until he finds something new
[20:16:02] <Apsup> Like popcorn gifs?
[20:16:08] <aria> Super tense (and close) math too! Ended up dying to power within...
[20:16:15] <apreche> like he bought some Applejack at a distillery upstate
[20:16:25] <apreche> and now he mentions Applejack about every other conversation.
[20:16:33] <aria> match*
[20:16:57] <aria> Painted world actually has some unique effects the rest of the game doesn't have
[20:17:02] <aria> different depth of field
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[20:17:10] <aria> it does the super flat thing
[20:17:10] <bronzdragon> HAAAAi
[20:17:17] <aria> backgrounds are drawn
[20:22:17] <aria> Apreche: Im not complining about losing to people who don't bow. Im complaining about people who do bow, but then back stab you while you bow back
[20:22:31] <apreche> clever trick!
[20:22:40] <apreche> wish I would have tried that back in the day
[20:23:52] <bronzdragon> ... really? That's your idea of clever?
[20:24:02] <apreche> take advantage of someone elses niceness
[20:24:15] <apreche> even better if you choose a light-side jedi model, so they expect it even less
[20:24:27] <Apsup> Backstabs, the number 1 reason I got buttmad after dribbling in DrkS PvP.
[20:24:41] <creamsteak> I miss being the big fish on my wow server, being all honorable and polite, having people trying to be "clever" and still trouncing them.
[20:24:44] <apreche> backstab is beststab
[20:25:59] <Apsup> In Jedi you were able to do one hit kill move from kneeling position if you used the heavy style (if my memory's correct) I occasionally tried that and was even succesfull sometimes.
[20:26:16] <apreche> i do remember something like that
[20:26:24] <creamsteak> best fight ever was the one where me and "baldie" some infamous alliance guy (I was horde) and I were dueling and both horde and alliance showed up to gank us respectively and we each killed the others faction, bowed, sat down and healed and then went back to dueling
[20:26:45] <creamsteak> got many a forum rage post
[20:27:32] <apreche> sounds like Captain Pellew gone wrong
[20:30:07] <aria> creamsteak: That happens in this game
[20:30:10] <aria> in fact, happened to me quite recently
[20:30:13] <aria> its so awesome
[20:30:51] <aria> Dude who just invaded me didn't bow, but at least he didn't heal or anything like that (he was the invader)
[20:31:49] <aria> Though he'd have a better chance of winning if he did, cause then Id let him apply his buff pre-fight
[20:31:55] <aria> instead he tried mid-fight and I killed him
[20:32:29] <aria> Fun game this
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[20:38:00] <MATATAT> HAAAI
[20:38:47] <aria> apreche: What do you think of pretending to be on someones side and wanting to help them coop the boss
[20:39:01] <aria> then backstabbing them and killing them, even though you get no reward
[20:39:42] <Apsup> Is that possible in some manner?
[20:41:35] <aria> On PC people do that with hacks
[20:41:42] <aria> Its also possible legit, but not backstabs
[20:41:49] <aria> you can parry their attakcs and not let them hit enemeis
[20:42:01] <apreche> it's called griefing
[20:42:01] <aria> and then they get murdered
[20:42:06] <aria> or you can push them off ledges
[20:42:08] <Apsup> I was just about to say that.
[20:42:13] <apreche> alternate utility
[20:42:22] <apreche> the game if flawed if that kind of behavior is happening
[20:42:27] <Apsup> There is a reason why I only trust sunbros if I happen to need assistance.
[20:42:43] <apreche> but it is arguable in say, an MMO
[20:42:45] <apreche> that it is not griefing
[20:42:56] <apreche> because there is no one set goal
[20:42:58] <aria> Im pretty darn sure its intended behavior, apreche
[20:43:06] <aria> There is no set goal in this either
[20:43:19] <apreche> people have all sorts of different goals, but all in the same environmental space.
[20:43:35] <aria> This game has an geographically mapped in game wiki
[20:43:41] <aria> But its not saved
[20:43:52] <Apsup> Does that happen a lot? I haven't summoned people that much but I've never had any problems while jolly co-operation.
[20:43:53] <aria> All the info you see is from the players you are connected to
[20:44:13] <apreche> oh, so you can lie in your wiki?
[20:44:16] <aria> So people all the time write stuff like "Jump off this cliff to get badass look"
[20:44:16] <apreche> nice
[20:44:27] <aria> loot*
[20:44:35] <apreche> In CS how many people say "Press Alt+F4 to do X"
[20:44:35] <nine> <~apreche> the game if flawed if that kind of behavior is happening
[20:44:40] <bronzdragon> Apsup, only once.
[20:44:43] <nine> Every game is flawed then.
[20:44:48] <apreche> not the case
[20:44:51] <bronzdragon> Guy got summoned, then quit after walking through the boss fog gate
[20:44:54] <apreche> there are games without griefers
[20:45:05] <aria> Apsup: Well, PC has a lot of hackers. On console... it's never happened to me
[20:45:07] <apreche> where everyone is reaching for the same goal throughout the game
[20:45:08] <aria> I have troll invaded
[20:45:11] <aria> but never troll sunbro'd
[20:45:16] <GauntletWizard> Yeah, those are the games that eve players like I call "unfun"
[20:45:17] <apreche> Connect 4, no griefing
[20:45:50] <Apsup> What if I do my best to make it so that 4 can't be commected.
[20:45:58] <apreche> then you are playing to win
[20:45:58] <bronzdragon> You play Eve?
[20:46:07] <GauntletWizard> Yes
[20:46:07] <apreche> which is not an alternate utility, and not griefing
[20:46:12] <Apsup> You mean palying not to win?
[20:46:23] <bronzdragon> You can grief at connect four...
[20:46:27] <bronzdragon> Just never make a move
[20:46:32] <apreche> if you play not to win, the other person will connect 4 very quickly
[20:46:36] <bronzdragon> Go "Imma place it heee--- nope"
[20:46:54] <GauntletWizard> that's called not playing, and your opponent disconnects
[20:46:57] <GauntletWizard> (or flips the table)
[20:47:03] <Apsup> What if I try to make it so that the thing gets filled/pieces run out without nether getting 4.
[20:47:03] <apreche> that's also forfeiting
[20:47:19] <apreche> you can't do anything within the context of the game to grief
[20:47:28] <apreche> you can play slowly at any board game
[20:47:34] <nine> Apsup, aria. What would you classify black crystalling out at the boss gate at half health because host is a dumb brick and I did not want to get summoned by them?
[20:47:51] <spacejam> \\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\
[20:48:08] <apreche> Apsup: that's not possible. Trying to prevent your opponent from connecting four is basically going to be the same moves as trying to connect four yourself.
[20:48:09] <Apsup> Kinda ok maybe. Depends.
[20:48:26] <apreche> like in chess
[20:48:31] <apreche> trying to avoid checkmate without checkmating?
[20:48:41] <Apsup> Well, griefing is anyways usually something that's done to team members in team or co-operative game.
[20:48:43] <nine> Draws are a thing you know.
[20:49:00] <apreche> they are, but going for one on purpose is the same moves as going for the win
[20:49:11] <Apsup> So when talking about griefing beging impossible we should try to find game with team/co-operative element where griefing is impossible.
[20:49:12] <GauntletWizard> Greifing can be done in antagonistic games...
[20:49:15] <aria> nine: Did you walk with them from the begining of the area?
[20:49:17] <nine> Not entirely.
[20:49:19] <nine> I did.
[20:49:20] <aria> Or did they summon you outside the boss fog?
[20:49:21] <apreche> no, griefing is when you have a different goal than the other players
[20:49:23] <apreche> for example
[20:49:25] <aria> cause if second: No problem
[20:49:25] <apreche> Settlers
[20:49:26] <nine> Capra Demon boss gate btw.
[20:49:28] <apreche> the goal is get 10 victory points
[20:49:29] <Robobuntu> you can't get 10 victory!
[20:49:36] <apreche> if you play Settlers, and your goal is to collect as much wood as possible
[20:49:38] <apreche> that is griefing
[20:49:47] <nine> Wut?
[20:49:53] <nine> Wood harbour + wood monopoly
[20:49:55] <nine> DO everything.
[20:49:59] <nine> You can win that way.
[20:49:59] <aria> first: Eh, you lose nothing, might as well help them. But they can get someone else outside the boss probably. Doesn't sound like you were being a douche.
[20:50:01] <Apsup> That's also being shit in the game.
[20:50:04] <apreche> yes, but imagine if someone just collects the wood
[20:50:05] <apreche> and doesn't harbor it
[20:50:09] <nine> It's certainly not grieving.
[20:50:09] <apreche> they just hold it in their hand
[20:50:11] <apreche> 7 wood
[20:50:14] <apreche> and they dont' build any roads
[20:50:17] <apreche> or settlements
[20:50:24] <nine> Then they can't hold all the wood.
[20:50:32] <nine> At which point they're just a non-factor for the game.
[20:50:35] <nine> That's hardly grieving.
[20:50:41] <apreche> they are a non-factor
[20:50:46] <apreche> but they have an alternate goal to every other player
[20:50:51] <apreche> and that is what griefing is
[20:51:00] <apreche> and it does ruin the game for the other players
[20:51:00] <nine> No.
[20:51:01] <nine> It's not.
[20:51:13] <aria> Nine: Its dark souls. I have nothing against trolling. Trolling is half the fun
[20:51:29] <aria> I don't like people who backstab during bows, and heal when invaded
[20:51:33] <nine> 5<3 aria. It is indeed Dark Souls.
[20:51:59] <creamsteak> the wikipedia description of griefing is... odd... on some count
[20:52:00] <nine> Not healing me while I tank everything? WELP, enjoy capra solo.
[20:52:06] <creamsteak> A griefer is a player in a multiplayer video game who deliberately irritates and harasses other players within the game, using aspects of the game in unintended ways.
[20:52:11] <aria> =D
[20:52:19] <nine> I couldn't even black crystal out fast enough or I already heard the host getting slammed into the ground.
[20:52:21] <creamsteak> - wikipedia
[20:52:25] <MATATAT> what is everyones deal with the capra
[20:52:40] <nine> No cutscene.
[20:52:43] <aria> Capra rushes you straight away
[20:52:45] <bronzdragon> Capra is early and he has 2 dogs.
[20:52:49] <nine> Up till that point you had reaction time.
[20:52:51] <aria> and he has 2 dogs that block your way
[20:52:53] <nine> Capra is just suddenly "CHOP".
[20:53:05] <MATATAT> the capra demon has never once been an issue for me
[20:53:06] <aria> if you don't know to take out the dogs right away, or able to light roll, you're getting fucked up
[20:53:20] <nine> Mid roll works as well.
[20:53:32] <nine> Fat roll if you're awesome, but that's stupid and hard at that point anyway.
[20:53:34] <apreche> that is the same thing as alternate utility. Pursuing an alternate goal in a game == irritating and harassing other players.
[20:53:34] <bronzdragon> Fuck your mid-roll!
[20:53:36] <MATATAT> i think people are just always stuck in one form of playing
[20:54:02] <nine> apreche: the only utility of games is "have fun".
[20:54:11] <aria> Nine: No no no. Fat roll works for you. It would not work for you the first time. No way you can react that fast and be able to make it out unharmed with fat rolls. Unless you're super badass at the game already but never faught capra for some reason
[20:54:11] <apreche> I mean utility in the game theory sense of the word
[20:54:15] <creamsteak> apreche: if you hinge it on whether or not other people are irritated it doesn't hold up to scrutiny
[20:54:25] <nine> Having fun by playing the game differently than others for the purpose of having fun is not an alternate utility.
[20:54:32] <creamsteak> IE: If I'm not annoyed by anything, I am ungriefable
[20:54:44] <apreche> if the state goal of a game is to get the most victory points
[20:54:50] <apreche> and someone plays that game, but does not try to get the most victory points
[20:54:54] <apreche> they have alternate utility
[20:55:07] <apreche> and if you play a game where you have the intended utility, but another player does not
[20:55:08] <aria> Nine
[20:55:15] <apreche> you will become irritated and the game will be ruined by them
[20:55:15] <nine> And I tell you you're wrong. Beacuaze yuo aer.
[20:55:20] <aria> Earlier I was helping a stupid douche at O&S
[20:55:25] <aria> so I waited outside the fog
[20:55:36] <nine> Your wood stockpile example is a perfectly fine viable tactic.
[20:55:42] <aria> When he was almost dead, I walked in and wrecked their shit
[20:55:44] <nine> Then you change the situation to him doing nothing.
[20:55:46] <nine> Hurf durf.
[20:55:57] <nine> Nice aria.
[20:56:01] <apreche> i said the person's goal was to get max wood instead of getting max VPs
[20:56:06] <nine> Did you wait for the sips to run out too?
[20:56:07] <aria> Yesterday, some dude was a jerk on vagina. I watched him die =P I wanted to parry him so bad, but figured he was barely doing damage anway
[20:56:14] <apreche> not to use a strategy of max wood as a way of getting max vps
[20:56:18] <MATATAT> O&S is the only boss where you should have difficulty, the fat demon things are kinda tough just because its trial and error with their hitrange sometimes
[20:56:19] <nine> You said the person's goal was to get the wood.
[20:56:24] <apreche> exactly
[20:56:25] <aria> he sipped, but Im sure he had more sips
[20:56:26] <apreche> that was their only goal
[20:56:30] <apreche> wood
[20:56:34] <apreche> for the sake of wood
[20:56:42] <apreche> not wood for the sake of winning
[20:56:44] <nine> And that's not an easy tast.
[20:56:45] <nine> task*
[20:56:48] <apreche> it is not
[20:56:51] <nine> Because the other players also are getting wood.
[20:56:54] <creamsteak> more alternative wikipedia definitions of weirdness: Griefers are similar to trolls, with the main difference being that griefers will often act in groups, sometimes in the form of tag team editing, to deliberately ridicule content on Wikipedia with which they disagree, to ridicule and harass editors associated with that content, and to interfere with the normal workings of the project. Trolls will instead more often act individually
[20:56:56] <apreche> everyone gets wood
[20:57:16] <nine> Yes, so they can have more wood.
[20:57:31] <apreche> I have wood often
[20:57:33] <nine> So the guy will have to do a lot more than just hoard 7 cards.
[20:57:34] <apreche> but not now
[20:57:50] <apreche> it's not the card hoarding that annoys the other players
[20:57:56] <apreche> it's the fact that the game is ruined by one person not trying to win
[20:58:09] <apreche> so maybe that allowed another player to get a better starting settlement
[20:58:18] <nine> If you wouldn't tell the rest of the players that you just wanted to have the most wood the entire game, they would not necesarrily notice from your playing style.
[20:58:21] <apreche> because an optimal spot was left open because wood man chose a worse spot that had more wood
[20:58:32] <nine> But the game is not ruined.
[20:58:33] <apreche> they would notice you not building anything
[20:58:49] <apreche> and leaving territory easy to grab near your starting settlements for players who started near you
[20:58:53] <apreche> dicking over the person who started far away from you
[20:58:56] <nine> Then you're not going for most wood at all times.
[20:59:03] <nine> You will have to get your monopoly up.
[20:59:17] <nine> Good luck without monopolying the wood resources.
[20:59:25] <nine> And 2 towns.
[20:59:30] <apreche> well, depends how exactly the game goes
[20:59:39] <nine> Irrelevant.
[20:59:40] <creamsteak> Reasons for griefing
[20:59:40] <creamsteak> There are as many motivations for griefing on Wikipedia as there are griefers, but common causes are:
[20:59:44] <creamsteak> Emotional immaturity and/or instability. Adolescent rebellion against authority. A desire to push the limits and attempt to disrupt. Sociopathic behavior.
[20:59:46] <creamsteak> Boredom. Some griefers feel that they want something to do, ad if they're not interested in participating in a constructive manner, they will generate their "fun" by antagonizing others. This boredom generally arises due to a lack of sufficient s timulus or creative outlets that can sometimes be the result of excessive regulation and moderation by authoritarian personalities and overly broad interpretation about what sort of activit
[20:59:48] <nine> Unless the other players naturally get no wood.
[20:59:51] <apreche> anothe example
[20:59:53] <creamsteak> Seeing no other recourse to adress systemic problems which result in Wikipedia's inability to rid itself of bad charaicters. Amusement derived from other people's reactions. (See also Wikipedia:Deny recognition.)
[21:00:04] <apreche> played a game of settlers where one guy his goal was to let this girl win
[21:00:09] <apreche> just gave her all his cards all the time
[21:00:15] <apreche> and didn't do anything
[21:00:36] <nine> Quite a shitty diplomatic ally he was then.
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[21:00:40] <creamsteak> I agree with some semblance of what apreche is saying but not all of the specific details, something is amiss there... equally so with the wikipedia prescriptive writing
[21:01:05] <nine> creamsteak: pretty much
[21:01:21] <aria> I invaded someone. He had a white phantom. White phantom didn't bow back. He ran away. So I followed him from a distance. After a while he disconnects.
[21:01:28] <aria> 3 minutes later I still couldn't find the host
[21:01:37] <nine> AHAHAHA
[21:01:41] <nine> You stuck around that long?
[21:01:46] <apreche> give an example of when someone is griefing by that definition
[21:01:49] <nine> Where did you invade?
[21:01:54] <aria> Host left pretty early
[21:01:54] <apreche> but is also simultaneously trying to win the game
[21:01:57] <aria> Painted world
[21:02:00] <MATATAT> lets talk about wood again
[21:02:02] <aria> it was like 4 min total
[21:02:03] <nine> When someone is getting butthurt about the behaviour!
[21:02:39] <nine> Make wood monopoly and wood harbour, deny any and all trades from other players that want wood.
[21:02:42] <nine> Very annoying.
[21:02:46] <apreche> that's not griefing
[21:02:48] <apreche> that's just winning
[21:02:50] <apreche> if you are butthurt by that
[21:02:52] <nine> People can get easily grieved that way.
[21:02:53] <apreche> you aren't being griefed
[21:02:56] <apreche> you are just being a sore loser
[21:02:59] <apreche> people whine when they lose all the time
[21:03:03] <Apsup> "Psycic teleport-phone with brain frying feature in it" Best possible description to trumps in Amber.
[21:03:03] <nine> Then you don't understand what grieving is.
[21:03:07] <apreche> just because one person whines doesn't mean the other person griefed
[21:03:07] <creamsteak> lol
[21:03:31] <apreche> I might lose at street fighter and feel grief, but that's just because I suck.
[21:03:32] <nine> No, it doesn't.
[21:03:34] <apreche> The other person was just playing to win.
[21:03:45] <nine> GRIEF AND WIN.
[21:03:45] <apreche> they were not griefing.
[21:03:45] <aria> apreche: Since you favor winning over fun, why do you oppose cheating?
[21:03:47] <nine> As per your request.
[21:03:54] <nine> Be intentionally annoying as fuck.
[21:03:56] <apreche> winning is within the rules.
[21:04:17] <creamsteak> I think you can "grief" a game without even being one of the players involved in it...
[21:04:18] <apreche> if you cheat, you lose
[21:04:19] <apreche> automatically
[21:04:22] <nine> Did you get an apprenticeship with Kilarney?
[21:04:28] <nine> Moving dem goalposts like a bawz.
[21:04:59] <nine> <~apreche> if you cheat, you lose
[21:05:00] <nine> Nope.
[21:05:00] <apreche> moving goalposts is cheating
[21:05:07] <aria> Nine: Im a lordblade. Invading is a chore =/
[21:05:13] <apreche> that's why they are stuck in the ground
[21:05:13] <nine> Most games have no rules to deal with cheating.
[21:05:18] <nine> aria: :<
[21:05:33] <nine> So you admit to cheating? Pah.
[21:05:34] <nine> So you lost.
[21:05:39] <nine> But again, you will never admit you have.
[21:05:50] <nine> By your own standards that is.
[21:05:52] <aria> I wish more people would kill NPCs and get indicted so I could police their asses
[21:06:08] <apreche> if a cheater doesn't get caught, did they actually cheat or are they a lonely tree falling in the woods?
[21:06:08] <nine> Stop being ridiculously overlevelled for the area.
[21:06:18] <creamsteak> I'm just glad the definition of griefing apreche uses shifted to include the alternative utility problem (or just playing a different game) that was expressed in some forum thread way back.
[21:06:23] <nine> Did the tree not fall when it fell?
[21:06:41] <nine> Not getting caught does not influence the action that was taken.
[21:06:50] <nine> It influences the consequences of the action that was taken.
[21:06:51] <nine> Big difference.
[21:06:58] <apreche> did the action even happen if nobody else experienced it?
[21:07:00] <aria> Im not overleved for this area
[21:07:03] <aria> default is 120
[21:07:10] <aria> Im 78
[21:07:13] <nine> There is no default.
[21:07:23] <aria> Well, pvp level here is 120 on xbawks
[21:07:24] <nine> apreche: I just said, did the tree not fall when it fell?
[21:07:33] <nine> 100 is the new 120.
[21:07:36] <nine> 120 is broken.
[21:07:39] <aria> Oh?
[21:07:41] <aria> Why's that?
[21:07:43] <nine> And flippy sinner territory.
[21:07:45] <aria> Fair enough, Im within range anyway
[21:07:50] <nine> Because of the PvP arena.
[21:07:59] <apreche> but nobody has been to the woods to see the tree
[21:07:59] <nine> And it's still in range of that 120.
[21:08:03] <aria> Dont have that yet
[21:08:04] <apreche> so it's a cat in a box, fallen or not fallen
[21:08:10] <nine> apreche: but the tree still fell.
[21:08:24] <aria> It wouldn't be a problem if I was a Darkwraith cause then I can invade anyone 60 and above
[21:08:31] <nine> If I sneeze now, nobody hears me sneeze. Does that mean I didn't sneeze?
[21:08:33] <nine> No it didn't.
[21:08:34] <aria> but police only gets to invade 70-90
[21:08:38] <MATATAT> but theres evidence when a tree fell
[21:08:39] <nine> Because me sneezing is not a quantum thing.
[21:08:47] <MATATAT> not when cheating
[21:08:49] <apreche> can you prove you sneezed?
[21:08:57] <apreche> you only have your memory, could be a false memory
[21:09:00] <nine> Sure.
[21:09:26] <nine> Get your forensics kit out and swab my paper.
[21:09:36] <nine> You'll see it will have snot on it.
[21:09:40] <GauntletWizard> I think Jolly Cooperation is my new favorite meme
[21:09:42] <apreche> that snot could have come from blowing your nose, not sneezing
[21:09:58] <nine> Same thing.
[21:10:22] <apreche> uh, no
[21:10:29] <Apsup> I don't even know what the discussion is about anymore. I probably shouldn't even care.
[21:10:34] <nine> TTR: too long
[21:10:38] <aria> GauntletWizard: Have you played Dark Souls?
[21:10:45] <apreche> it's about passing time until I can leave this work
[21:10:50] <apreche> T-50 minutes
[21:10:51] <aria> Are you currently? Id be up for some Jolly cooperating right now
[21:10:52] <nine> Apsup: apreche is moving goalposts constantly to avoid getting raped.
[21:11:14] <creamsteak> hrm... so query, how do you rationalize griefing in the case of "delay of game", say if it took someone 30 minutes to decide their eclipse turn? Not intentionally, but it just happened to take them that long to get there?
[21:11:14] <GauntletWizard> aria: No
[21:11:15] <MATATAT> were trying to see if nine really sneezed or not
[21:11:29] <nine> Because sneezing is quantum.
[21:11:31] <GauntletWizard> I don't own it, i've not played, I just keep seeing references
[21:11:31] <apreche> creamsteak: you punch them
[21:11:33] <MATATAT> my moneys riding on nose blowing
[21:11:45] <creamsteak> apreche: I mean is that griefing by your def?
[21:11:55] <nine> apreche: confirmed for huge dick.
[21:12:04] <creamsteak> cause it is for all practical purposes at my table due to implicit social rules that are not part of the game
[21:12:14] <nine> creamsteak: he'll just move his goalposts to what suits his fancy.
[21:12:19] <creamsteak> but are they only griefing THAT game and not the game being played?
[21:12:27] <creamsteak> or both? or neither?
[21:12:28] <apreche> creamsteak: are they spending that time thinking and honestly trying to win the game?
[21:12:34] <creamsteak> yes
[21:12:35] <GauntletWizard> I'm having a hard time going back to Dwarf Fortress
[21:12:41] <GauntletWizard> after playing Gnomoria and Towns
[21:12:42] <apreche> then they are just a slow thinker, and you should hit them
[21:12:42] <nine> HUGE DICK.
[21:12:50] <GauntletWizard> both games are still super goddamn broken...
[21:12:53] <nine> HUGE DICK.
[21:13:18] <aria> Oh noes!
[21:13:22] <GauntletWizard> (Like, broken and useless to the point I cannot believe that one is already selling on steam)
[21:13:25] <aria> Im almost out of character slots!
[21:13:27] <bronzdragon> Btw, how's dorf fortress going?
[21:13:40] <apreche> it's hanging out in shit-talk island
[21:13:40] <aria> (I have 3 different saves, and only one of them is almost out of slots, but yknow)
[21:13:43] <GauntletWizard> but, gods, is the DF interface designed by a crazed madman
[21:13:45] <apreche> with a lot of friends
[21:13:49] <aria> I wonder if Ill get more slots...
[21:14:51] <nine> GauntletWizard: Those games from the start were intended to cash in on DF's increased publicity.
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[21:15:33] <creamsteak> I don't know how useful that definition of griefing is then. You run into a lot of different use cases where it's only application is academic in that context. Which is fine as far as you've created a term... but pretty limited for practical purposes...
[21:15:38] <nine> DF interface is on par with every other roguelike.
[21:15:52] <nine> It's even nicer because it tells you what the fuck you can do.
[21:16:05] <apreche> that is true
[21:16:19] <apreche> in Nethack most people don't even know they can search for secret doors, or dig
[21:16:23] <apreche> unless they get one of those guis
[21:16:30] <creamsteak> lol "orthogriefing"
[21:16:43] <GauntletWizard> yeah, there's an infinite number of nethack commands that aren't well enumerated
[21:17:23] <GauntletWizard> and DF is a pretty good roguelike...
[21:17:53] <GauntletWizard> but a roguelike interface on a mass scale citybuilder isn't really a thing.
[21:18:02] <GauntletWizard> not even close to good.
[21:18:14] <nine> Nethack was introduced to me with "Read the manual", whereas DF was "Wiki your problem".
[21:18:47] <apreche> DF's biggest UI problem is inconsistency
[21:19:13] <apreche> why are farms and zones using a different UI than digging?
[21:19:30] <apreche> UMKH resizing vs Enter+arrows
[21:20:02] <nine> ... Zones are Enter + arrows.
[21:20:03] <apreche> and also that managing dwarf labor priorities is awful, and you have to use a separate app to do that.
[21:20:15] <apreche> I forget
[21:20:17] <nine> Priorities? BWAHAHAHAHAHAHA.
[21:20:19] <apreche> but some are different than others
[21:20:33] <nine> You cannot set priorities for individual dwarves.
[21:20:45] <apreche> you turn labors on and off for them
[21:20:46] <nine> You can prioritize scheduled tasks over other scheduled tasks.
[21:20:52] <nine> Yes, that's not prioritizing.
[21:20:59] <apreche> it is if you only have one enabled at a time!
[21:21:01] <nine> That's assigning a dwarf to do a job, or not do it at all.
[21:21:03] <nine> HUGE DIFFERENCE.
[21:21:39] <creamsteak> I wish you could turn off their "job" to eat and party from time to time
[21:22:30] <nine> Lock them in a solo area with no meeting areas, then turn them into a vampire.
[21:22:33] <nine> PROBLEM SOLVED.
[21:22:58] <creamsteak> did anyone ever test the "all my dwarves are were-somethings" idea?
[21:22:58] <nine> Parties are easy to not have.
[21:23:04] <nine> Just don't have a table as meeting area.
[21:23:10] <nine> Probably
[21:23:35] <creamsteak> I never could find any data on it
[21:23:50] <creamsteak> I wanted to know if all your dwarves are were-creatures, do you lose the game on a full moon?
[21:24:28] <nine> Nope.
[21:24:59] <nine> Actually, that is different enough from only having 1 vampire left that it might be different.
[21:25:01] <creamsteak> I want all my dwarves to be were lizards that regenerate limbs so bad then
[21:25:04] <creamsteak> or whatever it takes
[21:25:16] <nine> Though I think the dwarves will remain part of the civ, so no loss.
[21:25:27] <nine> Everyone just suddenly wants to kill dwarves, of which there are none.
[21:25:42] <nine> Just have a vampire backup.
[21:25:44] <nine> Problem solved.
[21:25:48] <nine> Easier to get vampires anyway.
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[21:26:44] <aria> Nine
[21:26:56] <aria> Since Im police, I have the highest chance of invading people who either are cheap, or hack
[21:27:08] <aria> For the hackers, I just parry them until they turned thier consoles off
[21:27:15] <aria> But for non-hackers
[21:27:18] <aria> should I also be cheap?
[21:27:21] <apreche> my dwarves all becamee ware-lizards once
[21:27:23] <aria> I mean, you wanna punish them..
[21:27:24] <apreche> it was not so great
[21:27:29] <aria> but I kinda just want fair pvp
[21:27:46] <aria> Also Apsup
[21:27:47] <aria> and MATATAT
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[21:28:32] <aria> Also, should I assume cheap, or let them make the first move?
[21:28:58] <creamsteak> what do you mean you are police?
[21:31:37] <aria> Lord Blade
[21:31:42] <bronzdragon> There's a covenant that punishes sinners
[21:31:47] <bronzdragon> He's in that one
[21:32:30] <bronzdragon> (Sinners being people who've been indicted via PVP, or who killed Gwyndolin)
[21:32:56] <aria> Nah, we don't go after people who kill Gwyndolin
[21:32:59] <aria> at least I don't think so
[21:33:05] <aria> I can go after people do kill Gwynwere
[21:33:10] <aria> But Im currently not
[21:33:25] <aria> Im currently going after people who are cheap in pvp, or who break convenant
[21:33:26] <aria> s
[21:33:33] <aria> also maybe killing certain npc's, but not sure
[21:35:55] <aria> Host did a "come at me bro" while I was white phantom. I left.
[21:51:40] <Apsup> If you are invading sinners because you are doing your civil duty feel free to do wahtever. Though you should not even be in that covenant as your are proven to be dirty sinner.
[21:52:18] <aria> Im proven to be a dirty sinner?
[21:53:24] <aria> The only time Ive been idiected on this character is when I invaded a dude who had an invader on him already
[21:53:34] <aria> and then watched them fight while keeping my distance and didn't touch him
[21:53:41] <aria> he lost to the first invader, and then indicted me
[21:53:43] <Apsup> You frequently have usen the so called "flip ring" that is sure sing that it's owner is dirty sinner who deservers all deaths in their undead life.
[21:54:33] <aria> Gosh, it's in the game. Using balanced items that enhance certain playstyles it totally fair game
[21:54:46] <aria> also, I can't use it on this character, cause Im using a heavy weapon
[21:55:21] <Apsup> But you can't get that item without being dirty sinner, and double sinner at that. That's enough reasons for me no to aquire such ring.
[21:55:23] <aria> Also, my bow character that uses that ring is probably the worst pvp character there is. Even with that ring, I need to be god to wing against anyone
[21:55:36] <aria> Ah, actually
[21:55:48] <aria> the game glitched and he accidentally killed himself
[21:55:54] <aria> because of it the forest hunters turned on me
[21:55:59] <aria> otherwise I was planning on just being a forest hunter
[22:00:07] <Apsup> Justify it all you want but still with powers invested in me by random number generator I deem you guilty for the sin.
[22:00:44] <nine> < aria> Gosh, it's in the game. Using balanced items that enhance certain
[22:00:45] <nine> playstyles it totally fair game
[22:00:47] <nine> AHAHAHAHAHAHA
[22:00:54] <nine> It's in the game, therefore it is balanced.
[22:01:07] <aria> Post patch its totally balanced
[22:01:14] <aria> You give up a slot for 3 more i frames
[22:01:29] <nine> Wasn't it 4?
[22:01:37] <aria> Im not actually sure
[22:01:38] <nine> And that's like 150%!
[22:03:18] <aria> Its a fucking good ring
[22:03:21] <aria> But its not a broken ring
[22:03:24] <aria> fap ring is also fucking good
[22:05:33] <nine> FaP ring breaks when unequipped.
[22:05:39] <nine> Unlike sinner's ring.
[22:05:55] <aria> Fap is not the only really good ring =P
[22:05:58] <aria> Cloranthy doesn't break
[22:06:19] <aria> neither does havels, rusted,
[22:06:26] <nine> Cloranthy's not as good as FaP and sinner's flip.
[22:06:45] <aria> Cloranthy is one of my favorite PvE rings..
[22:06:49] <aria> How aboout Red Tearstone?
[22:07:07] <aria> or bellowing dragoncrest?
[22:07:29] <nine> PvE rings are a completely seperate bracket from PvP rings as FaP and sinner's flip.
[22:07:55] <nine> Rusted ring is useless in 80% of the game.
[22:12:21] <aria> DLC pyromancy + bellowing ring > 99 int soul spear
[22:13:28] <aria> The problem with flip ring is that it basically makes cloranthy and wolf useless
[22:13:33] <aria> but it doesn't anymore =P
[22:13:39] <aria> And cloranthy was better at being cloranthy anyway
[22:17:18] <nine> Yup, DLC magicks are fucking atrocious.
[22:17:27] <nine> Sinner's flip level of fucked.
[22:18:15] <aria> Worst part about it is that I have to deal with it with no way of getting it...
[22:19:29] <nine> Eeeeeyup.
[22:19:39] <nine> Welcome to Dark Souls.
[22:19:47] <aria> At least ninja ring, if you think its not fair, you can just use it yourself
[22:19:59] <nine> You've had time to practice with your easy magic and sinner's flip ring.
[22:20:04] <nine> Now the real Dark Souls begins.
[22:20:21] <nine> You can use it yourself... if you go and get it.
[22:21:33] <aria> Go and get it > buy it for 20 bucks
[22:30:28] <aria> Is there any drawback to DLC magic?
[22:30:39] <aria> I fought a dude who used DLC combustion at least 10 times earlier
[22:30:39] <Robobuntu> you can't least 10 times!
[22:34:51] <nine> Oh yeah, you gotta buy the update.
[22:34:55] <nine> Even though it's already in your game.
[22:36:11] <Apsup> update no need to buy. DLC need to buy.
[22:37:39] <nine> AHAAHAHAHAHAHA
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[22:38:14] <nine> Well, they can't really break up the community between "DLC-owners" and others.
[22:38:47] <aria> Why isn't the DLC free? Or just yknow, as good or slightly worse stuff than non-dlc
[22:39:12] <bronzdragon> All the loot in Dark souls is about equal to all the other loot
[22:39:32] <bronzdragon> Why isn't this true between DLC and non-DLC?
[22:41:33] <Apsup> 1. you can't have free DLC at xbox (or at least at some point it was impossible). 2. Makes more money.
[22:42:20] <aria> Oh thats fine. Ill buy the DLC
[22:42:23] <aria> Just don't force me to
[22:42:52] <aria> Dark Souls is like the only recent game that I respect every design decision of pre-dlc
[22:43:12] <aria> I get that you'll want badass new things and such
[22:43:21] <aria> but instead, just make them feel very different, but actually be slightly worse
[22:43:30] <aria> Then experienced players will still enjoy it
[22:43:36] <aria> and people without the DLC won't get mad
[22:45:31] <Apsup> http://vimeo.com I don't want to say aliens, but... aliens.
[22:45:51] <nine> aria: NO CLUE.
[22:46:01] <nine> The magic is ridiculous.
[22:46:08] <nine> The new areas and boss fights are awesome though.
[22:46:41] <nine> You respected 50% sinning?
[22:46:50] <nine> That shit's was the fucking worst.
[22:46:56] <nine> You can dodge the dark magic you know.
[22:46:59] <nine> Just roll through it.
[22:48:18] <nine> Imho the dark magics are on par with the other magic. They just do a lot of stamina damage.
[22:50:18] <aria> You can dodge it, but people keep spamming it, so you never get any windows. Good thing they patched the million uses/frame thing
[22:51:10] <aria> 50% sinning is no worse than drake sword at the burg. If you try weird things, they reward you
[22:54:48] <aria> N'aw
[22:54:58] <aria> I got a nice message just now during DkS PvP
[22:55:00] <aria> thats rare
[22:55:04] <aria> Im happy now =)
[22:55:24] <aria> Some dude thanked me for not being cheap, and called me "kind sir"
[23:00:52] <nine> ...
[23:00:58] <nine> How the fuck is drake sword at burg weird?
[23:01:16] <nine> <3 non-cheap fights.
[23:02:25] <nine> Helping new players about only to get invaded by someone running around with zaphanders is groanworthy.
[23:02:52] <aria> That one isn't weird, but quite balsy
[23:04:48] <Apsup> I've only gotten positive messages from Dark Souls.
[23:06:12] <aria> I only get positive message sunbroing
[23:06:14] <aria> Not pvp =P
[23:06:27] <Apsup> :]
[23:08:12] <Apsup> For some reason Steam likes to lose my non Steam games. What's more fun is that Witcher 2 is not even in the list when I choose to add non-Steam games.
[23:08:35] <Apsup> I wonder if it has something to do with how Steam library synchs between two computers.
[23:11:54] <aria> I invaded someone who backstabbed me while I was bowing
[23:11:59] <aria> and he had a bunch of health
[23:12:06] <aria> and maxed out lighting weapons
[23:12:11] <aria> Still won =)
[23:12:22] <Apsup> Wrong alarm, it didn't lose it just lost it's category and threw it back under Games.
[23:12:54] <aria> apreche: So with your anything to win attitude
[23:13:04] <aria> what do you think of joining a server in CS that is locked to 6v1
[23:13:12] <aria> but it doesn't say so in the serverlist?
[23:13:49] <aria> In fact, it pretends that its currently 5v6 and there is 1 empty slot
[23:14:38] <Apsup> Hey, you found a reason why I don't even look at server list in CS anymore.
[23:15:20] <aria> the 6v1 thing fucking happens in Dark Souls =P
[23:15:31] <aria> People will invite 2 white phantoms
[23:15:37] <aria> then get their friends to invade as red phantoms
[23:15:40] <Apsup> People are dicks.
[23:15:43] <aria> and wait for blue phantoms in black anor londo
[23:15:59] <Apsup> Dark Souls PvP is not balanced never tried to be, don't pretend otherwise.
[23:16:31] <aria> If the host just doesn't heal, 1v1 is balanced
[23:16:35] <aria> or if you both heal I guess
[23:17:21] <Apsup> But host can summon helpers to make it 2vs1 and blance is thrown out.
[23:17:35] <aria> Well of course
[23:17:43] <aria> Its Dark Souls, when going through the game for the first time
[23:17:46] <aria> do whatever it takes to survive
[23:18:09] <aria> but when both players want to pvp, it can be a fair match
[23:18:19] <aria> Also, wars happen
[23:18:34] <aria> Well... 3v3v3 happens
[23:18:40] <aria> Not sure if that counts as a war =P
[23:19:28] <Apsup> Yes, but it requires trust of both sides also understandment of etiquette that is not build into the game. In a way it can be valid, but no one can be forced to follow custom rules and you can't expect anyone to follow those rules.
[23:19:43] <aria> The biggest dicks are white phantoms parrying their hosts/fellow white/sunbro
[23:20:22] <aria> Cause you can't do anything about it. Not even kick them off ledges like you can with hackers
[23:21:50] <Apsup> Well anyways I'll continue the adventures of Witcher Gerald, let's see what he beds this time.
[23:22:08] <aria> I should play some Witcher
[23:22:21] <aria> Then I don't have to worry about players being dicks =P
[23:23:31] <aria> Oh, actually found something I think apreche can agree to being cheap.
[23:23:40] <aria> There's a honroable match item in the game
[23:23:52] <aria> Where you put a sign on the ground
[23:24:00] <aria> and people can click on it and summon you into their games
[23:24:02] <aria> and then you fight
[23:24:38] <aria> But a lot of people summon people into their game, standing right behind the summon-sign, so that they'll spawn with their back to them, unable to move
[23:24:43] <aria> then backstab them before they spawn
[23:25:16] <aria> (backstabs are crits, often one hit kills)
[23:27:51] <Apsup> *using my best Scott imitation* If it's in the game it fair to use. Not using it would be not trying your best to win and thus griefing.
[23:28:49] <aria> =/
[23:29:16] <aria> I got 2v1d by two mages. But they were bad players. I shouldn't have lost to them. I was trying to get them to clear out the area and fight me in a better spot
[23:29:26] <aria> But they magic'd me instead =P
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[23:58:57] <Bronz-AFK> Rawr!