#geeknights | Logs for 2012-11-05

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[00:09:45] <Apsup> Woman shalt not give man more drink unless man has given her order or permission to do so. Obviously.
[00:17:41] <Coldguy> ok
[00:31:26] <Apsup> You lack context. You don't need it.
[01:11:39] <Coldguy> dinner time
[01:11:51] <Coldguy> got some genoa sandwiches
[01:27:16] <Bronzdragon> How's a Genoan sandwich different from others?
[01:27:19] <Bronzdragon> Genoa?
[01:28:43] <Coldguy> salami
[01:29:13] <Bronzdragon> ... So a Salami sandwich?
[01:29:37] <Coldguy> and cheese
[01:29:51] <Coldguy> but yes
[01:29:55] <Bronzdragon> Oh, okay
[01:30:13] <Bronzdragon> They should come up with a better sandwich
[01:30:29] <Coldguy> they do
[01:30:34] <Coldguy> www.jimmyjohns.com
[01:30:41] <Coldguy> but I wanted a slim
[01:30:45] <Bronzdragon> Now we're talkin'
[01:35:12] <Coldguy> $3.50 for being lazy on sunday
[01:35:16] <Coldguy> cant beat that
[01:36:58] <Bronzdragon> truth
[01:37:11] <Coldguy> anything new
[01:37:18] <Bronzdragon> Well... get a friend to pick it up for you
[01:37:23] <Bronzdragon> Don't go out of the house.
[01:37:50] <Coldguy> ok
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[09:21:02] <lukeburrage> Morning everyone!
[09:21:38] <lukeburrage> I can wait 10 minutes.
[09:21:38] <Robobuntu> you can't wait 10 minutes!
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[10:06:26] <lukeburrage> Morning, nine.
[10:25:32] <nine> Hey there lukeburrage.
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[12:18:44] <aria> Tarkus http://youtu.be
[12:21:25] <aria> They should make a movie on Tarkus' version of his Dark Souls journey just so that everyone playing will feel like a bitch =P
[12:22:30] <aria> Velka comes to pick him up from the Asylum, he just jumps the gap instead =P The pool is closed: Just punches through the ground and drops down to the klin =P
[12:22:48] <aria> I also really like the top comment: "The´╗┐ Abyss needs a ring to be able to touch Tarkus."
[12:24:59] <aria> This other video is great. He gets picked up and thrown twice, no shits given. Then beats the crap out of the golem =P
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[12:41:10] <ruffas> mornin
[12:41:14] <aria> Hey
[12:42:54] <ruffas> how goes thing?
[12:42:57] <ruffas> things*
[12:43:18] <aria> I need to pee, but don't want to get up
[12:43:33] <ruffas> tragic
[12:44:01] <aria> Yup
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[14:05:04] <aria> Someone made a skyrim mod where you summon a "Fuckton of Trains" (that is the actual in-game spell name) and dump them on your enemy
[14:11:12] <ruffas> ...
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[14:13:02] <aria> Mornin'
[14:13:11] <bronzdragon> Hey hey
[14:13:15] <ruffas> that it is
[14:13:17] <bronzdragon> I was thinking I'd make some breakfast
[14:13:36] <bronzdragon> Lunch?
[14:13:38] <aria> We should probably share our version of the reverse from Skyrim
[14:13:42] <aria> Breakfast
[14:13:50] <ruffas> reverse skyrim?
[14:13:55] <bronzdragon> ... What ruffas said
[14:14:14] <aria> I'll explain it to Ruffas, hopefully you'll get it to
[14:14:21] <aria> Someone made a skyrim building
[14:14:23] <aria> with some beds in it
[14:14:34] <aria> and a library and some other stuff
[14:14:40] <aria> We wanted to change some of the things in it
[14:14:49] <aria> So we changed about 70% of it
[14:15:00] <ruffas> k
[14:15:21] <bronzdragon> Ah.
[14:15:25] <aria> Looking at other people's buildings, apperantly the stuff we did to that house is rare and popular
[14:15:32] <aria> so maybe other people will like our version
[14:15:38] <bronzdragon> We didn't change that much...
[14:15:41] <ruffas> what kind of stuff?
[14:15:49] <bronzdragon> Also, the weapon racks don't actually work...
[14:15:52] <bronzdragon> =P
[14:16:02] <aria> Sure we did. We added the round room, and the throne with all the wind effects
[14:16:09] <aria> and changed out the entire lower floor
[14:16:15] <aria> and added a dragon
[14:16:25] <aria> Oh right, and the puppets walk...
[14:16:32] <aria> And there's a hole in the floor
[14:16:39] <aria> Yeah I forgot we never actually fixed the begs
[14:16:51] <aria> and the framerate is still 1 in that one area outside...
[14:17:05] <ruffas> ...
[14:17:15] <bronzdragon> =P
[14:17:15] <ruffas> ima go take a shower
[14:17:31] <aria> bugs*
[14:18:01] <ruffas> and for the record, Reverse Skyrim sounds like a kinky sex position
[14:18:16] <aria> ... >=3
[14:18:39] <bronzdragon> I will stab you now with my sword
[14:18:47] <bronzdragon> Oh noes, I'm about to cast my spell!
[14:18:55] <aria> That's horrible, Bronz
[14:18:55] <bronzdragon> Healing.... BURST!
[14:18:58] <bronzdragon> =D
[14:20:00] <aria> http://youtu.be
[14:22:48] <bronzdragon> Khajit con! NOOOO
[14:24:27] <bronzdragon> trains are cool
[14:24:29] <bronzdragon> okay, food now
[14:24:41] <aria> Really? You don't have any other comments about that spell?
[14:24:48] <bronzdragon> It was
[14:24:51] <bronzdragon> amazing
[14:24:56] <aria> Damn right it was
[14:25:10] <bronzdragon> Best skyrim mod
[14:25:17] <aria> Probably, yeah
[14:33:19] <ruffas> that is the best mod
[14:33:28] <aria> Told you
[14:34:27] <bronzdragon> Then we all agree!
[14:34:51] <aria> Is there a fall control ring?
[14:34:55] <bronzdragon> Before the day is done, I will have needed to have visited the town's centre.
[14:35:02] <bronzdragon> I don't think so...
[14:35:52] <aria> There wasn't
[14:40:48] <ruffas> it's time for me to away to work
[14:41:00] <bronzdragon> Have luck
[14:41:20] <aria> !
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[14:41:30] <ruffas> later
[14:41:30] <aria> You can go up the ladder behind the hydra without killing the hydra
[14:41:50] <aria> This dude is trying to get to the darkwood grain ring without killing the hydra or the cats
[14:41:52] <aria> (or anyone really)
[14:42:07] <bronzdragon> Don't you need to kill the merchant?
[14:42:18] <aria> Hrm?
[14:42:24] <aria> Oh you need to kill the ninja
[14:42:36] <aria> But you can kick him off an ledge, then restart the game
[14:43:03] <bronzdragon> I see
[14:43:32] <aria> He got past the cat!
[14:43:33] <bronzdragon> There was shell in my egg =(
[14:43:41] <aria> ... =(
[14:44:00] <aria> You didn't cut yourself on egg shell did you?
[14:44:10] <bronzdragon> Nah, but my teeth did crack
[14:44:16] <bronzdragon> because I bit on it
[14:44:21] <bronzdragon> it was al *crunch*
[14:44:29] <aria> ...
[14:44:57] <aria> Im pretty sure your teeth are sturdier than egg shell
[14:45:05] <bronzdragon> well...
[14:45:06] <bronzdragon> shush
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[14:57:52] <creamsteak> rawr
[15:01:16] <bronzdragon> Hai!
[15:01:17] <bronzdragon> Rawr
[15:15:32] <aria> Its good luck to have fish meat in your bed
[15:21:06] <creamsteak> hot
[15:21:44] <aria> Hey Creamsteak, did you see the trainspell?
[15:21:52] <aria> If not, here http://youtu.be
[15:22:24] <aria> Also, here's Tarkus for good measure http://youtu.be
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[15:40:13] <aria> Oh hey, someone made portals for skyrim
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[16:13:06] <bronzdragon> hey Snickety-Snake
[16:13:13] <bronzdragon> (VentureJ)
[16:13:42] <Snickety-Snake> Hi!
[16:13:46] <VentureJ> What's up peeps
[16:14:04] <okeefe> Good morning.
[16:14:48] <Snickety-Snake> Getting ready for my last week of class before exams
[16:18:33] <bronzdragon> Learn all the questions
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[18:01:05] <originalme8> Hey guys
[18:01:50] <aria> Herro
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[18:06:11] <bronzdragon> HEY
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[19:34:14] <Apsup> There went yet another session of aventures of Lady Blackbird and her friends.
[19:34:32] <ruffas> were they fruitful?
[19:35:12] <Apsup> Fruit was not made of aquired, but otherwise things went well.
[19:35:29] <ruffas> :p
[19:37:25] <Apsup> Everything goes according my three act plan. 1st act, 1st session, escape from Hand of Sorrow. 2nd act, 2nd session Nightport and aquiring the secret route. and next time we will have 3th act Pirate King Uriah Flint.
[19:37:48] <ruffas> pirate kings are cool
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[20:25:24] <bronzdragon> HAI
[20:25:29] <bronzdragon> I missed you all
[20:26:45] <ProfPangloss|Work> Wreck-it Ralph currently doing an AMA
[20:26:52] <ProfPangloss|Work> *director of Wreck-it Ralph
[20:27:10] <bronzdragon> Oeh
[20:27:18] <bronzdragon> I need to see that
[20:28:59] <ProfPangloss|Work> It's pretty fantastic
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[20:33:28] <bronzdragon> RUFFAS
[20:33:29] <bronzdragon> =D
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[21:15:03] <aria> apreche: Are you not always against house rules?
[21:16:34] <aria> Or is your argument usually "I only play perfect games, so house rules in my perfect games are dumb. But if you want to play a broken game that is not CS:Go or NS2, then whats wrong with you, play the game I decided is the best game. But also use house rules in your stupid game for stupid people".
[21:16:40] <aria> ?
[21:20:02] <bronzdragon> This is what apreche said in the latest newsletter
[21:22:04] <creamsteak> "The Book" he may point you at divides rules into first and second order rules.
[21:22:58] <aria> "The book"?
[21:23:01] <creamsteak> it also makes a point though to say "playing a slightly different game is not a different game" unless you're pedantic
[21:23:09] <creamsteak> "Characteristics of Games"
[21:24:19] <creamsteak> although I, and apreche and rym, I think disagree with that sentence partially in that sure it's pedantic, but it's accurate. If you change a rule, it's a different "game" in one sense of the word - while perhaps falling still within the "domain" of the same game. For ex: Helmet on helmet contact in football.
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[21:25:00] <creamsteak> in other words, you can say "it's still football", but by changing the actual rules it's now a slight variation of the same game
[21:25:19] <aria> So in a video game
[21:25:26] <aria> If you change in-game options
[21:25:34] <aria> What does that count as?
[21:25:42] <creamsteak> depends slightly on context
[21:25:52] <creamsteak> do you define the game as starting before the options menu or after?
[21:26:32] <creamsteak> it's analogous to picking different character classes
[21:26:47] <aria> *shrug* Its a video game, so as soon as I launch the program probably
[21:26:57] <creamsteak> then nope, not different games
[21:27:22] <creamsteak> hense why the book says it's pedantic
[21:27:43] <creamsteak> it doesn't matter for 99% of practicality to differentiate between D&D with and without minor houserule x.
[21:28:14] <Apsup> Fuck yea, felt like playing little CS:Go and decided to play a round of Arms Race as a warm up. I ended up winning and now I don't want to play the normal CS, so ruin this good feeling.
[21:28:18] <creamsteak> but if you want to get technical, any rules change (or at least first order rules change) would make it a different "game" from a pure mathematical game theory assessment
[21:29:05] <Apsup> Pure mathematical game theory has little to do with videojames.
[21:29:12] <creamsteak> it does and it doesn't
[21:29:58] <aria> "little"
[21:30:04] <aria> I think I agree with Apsup
[21:31:48] <creamsteak> even approaching it outside the context of math, how you atomize your particular view of a game changes a lot
[21:32:00] <creamsteak> Risk Legacy being one of the easiest recent examples.
[21:33:06] <creamsteak> Is each "game" rather unfair, but the entire "campaign" is relatively fair - for example
[21:33:19] <creamsteak> Each "game" is I mean
[21:37:22] <Apsup> Is there some kind of mechanic where everyone starts with equal strenght but who wins games get bonuses for next games? If that's so, them even if it's "fair" it's not good, because it's not interesting to play a game where you are put into more and more of disadvantage every game you play just because you had bad start and lost your first few games.
[21:38:15] <aria> I take a simpler approach: Experimenting always leads to the most fun games
[21:38:23] <creamsteak> everyone starts equal (though technically I think going first is a slight advantage) and there's both a catch-up mechanic and a steamrolling mechanic based on the advances you make in each "minigame" essentially.
[21:38:32] <creamsteak> plus secret information
[21:38:41] <creamsteak> and unknown game changes that shake it up
[21:39:09] <creamsteak> Experimenting is the simplest heuristic tool available.
[21:39:38] <creamsteak> that's not to say there are not other heuristic tools that provide better short cuts in other possible situations depending on the strength and utility of the heuristic tool :P
[21:40:59] <creamsteak> all of this tells me you should actually read the book, it's informative and fair without being too in depth or overly prescriptive
[21:41:46] <creamsteak> Risk Legacy basically has almost all the mechanics from chapter 4 rolled into one game, if you look at it from a campaign perspective
[21:43:19] <creamsteak> everyone starts off even (slight favor to who goes first) but winning your first game is actually a set back for winning any other game... but after each win you get a tiny bonus to following games... then there are dynamic resets each time a packet gets openned that shake things up while still retaining a rough game placement towards victory... and generally it's a neat little experiment
[21:43:37] <creamsteak> plus heavy politics since it's risk
[21:43:58] <creamsteak> if someone is the "campaign leader" expect some chip taking game type results and such as well
[21:48:57] <aria> A video game being fair and balanced isn't as important as the flow of your inputs being fun, and that's not something you can guess based on math
[21:49:45] <aria> Also fancy screen effects and sound ques add a lot as well
[21:49:51] <creamsteak> it can in fact be a thing you can approximate based on math in certain circumstances
[21:50:26] <aria> Based on distance between buttons? But people remap their controls anyway.
[21:50:59] <creamsteak> the difference between a six and a seven damage vs. light armored flying targets on a space marine
[21:50:59] <Robobuntu> six and, can't lose!
[21:53:08] <aria> I mean on a much more basic level. The order you push the buttons on your controller matters for how much I enjoy the game
[21:53:24] <aria> But it's not the actual keys I press that matter, but what they ammount to in the game world
[21:53:45] <creamsteak> yes, which could be a six or a seven
[21:53:46] <Robobuntu> six or, can't lose!
[21:54:09] <aria> If I have a button that buffs my next punch, the more narrow the fuction of the buff is, the more do I enjoy spamming the buff
[21:54:12] <creamsteak> my personal wow input had 5 foot pedals and a 17 button mouse and macro keys :P
[21:54:19] <creamsteak> you can't plan for that
[21:54:51] <lukeburrage> Evening!
[21:55:05] <creamsteak> evening.
[21:56:24] <creamsteak> http://www.amazon.com
[21:57:37] <Apsup> Any even remotely more complex game and you can't just pure math it for balance. Especially asymmetric game. The amount of things players can do in cideogame is so high that trying to pure math balance is pretty much impossible and testing and tweaking does the job easier.
[21:57:40] <aria> I don't think there's any math that could tell you people enjoy very specific buffs. If it's too specific, it also becomes less fun. How'd you figure out where the thershold without expermientation
[21:58:11] <aria> Also perfectly balanced games are usually not as fun
[21:58:23] <creamsteak> I would quit focusing on the word "math" as you guys understand it
[21:58:51] <aria> Smash Bros is at its most fun when someone gets super unlucky because the game screwed them over and spawned 4 bombs in their skirt
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[22:01:11] <lukeburrage> I've never played Smash Bros. When I was at college, the multiplayer console game was GoldenEye, GoldenEye, Mario Cart 64, and, after three or four games of Mario Cart 64, back to GoldenEye.
[22:02:11] <creamsteak> things like the complexity level of the heuristic tree for a game do genuinely matter for the "enjoyability" of a game, and those can possibly include mathematical analysis
[22:02:12] <aria> It's with a K
[22:02:44] <aria> Oh yeah sure
[22:02:57] <aria> But most of the time, testing stuff is the better way to go
[22:03:08] <creamsteak> IE, in Dead or Alive a low level heuristic tool is that the game is balanced so that kicks beat punches beat grapples or such
[22:03:10] <aria> and dropping something because its no fun is also a better way to go than to keep it because the math is sound
[22:03:33] <creamsteak> better in what way though? On one level, exhaustive testing is the answer to everything ever: but that's time and resource limited
[22:03:54] <creamsteak> creating better short cuts that are more efficient uses of your time and resources is incredibly powerful when applied well
[22:04:41] <aria> Ok, so one of my favorite fighting games, Tekken, isn't balanced beyond testing and estimates. And it ends up with characters that are superior to other characters. But at low levels of play, doesn't matter. Still a plenty fun game, and a lot of the fun of it is maximazing the characters potential
[22:05:56] <aria> You're ignoring that people can make ok estimates based on having made the game and know every aspect of it by heart
[22:06:59] <aria> lukeburrage: Since you say "Console game", I assume you also did PC games
[22:07:08] <aria> And on PC, mostly shooters, because PC
[22:07:23] <aria> How come GoldenEye was stilla huge hit when there were so many better PC shooters at the time?
[22:07:50] <aria> I also have fond memories of Golden Eye, but a lot less so than what many of my friends seem to have. And from what I can tell, it's because they didn't play Quake prior
[22:08:04] <creamsteak> I think you're confusing a few different things
[22:08:17] <creamsteak> you "can" arrive at results just by strict trial and error
[22:09:04] <okeefe> Low barrier to entry?
[22:09:09] <Apsup> I also had good memories about Golden Eye, but then we actually played it with friends few months back and all the good memories went away. Except the ones about the single player campaing, it's still cool.
[22:09:22] <bronzdragon> But... hat throwing
[22:09:28] <bronzdragon> surely hat throwing is still amazing
[22:09:30] <aria> Really? I enjoyed some 2p Golden Eye not too long ago
[22:09:43] <aria> Although on a emulator with nicer visuals and a solid framerte
[22:09:56] <okeefe> I just remember GE looking terrible compared to Quake 2, and not bothering with it.
[22:10:34] <aria> When playing, the person I was playing with used a 360 controller, mapped in such a way that enabled twin stick movement
[22:10:42] <aria> I played with a fighting stick. It was excellent
[22:13:30] <aria> I also bought perfect dark on Xbox a week or two ago
[22:13:47] <aria> But no one was online =P
[22:14:05] <bronzdragon> Wasn't that 16 days ago?
[22:14:06] <Robobuntu> 16 days, might lose...
[22:14:20] <Apsup> We played 4 players with shitty N64 controllers.
[22:14:53] <Apsup> I'd say that the controllers was big reason for dislike. When I played the single player campaing I did it with playstation controller on emulator.
[22:15:49] <bronzdragon> I kinda like the N64 controller
[22:16:50] <Apsup> Freak. Also at least in my controller the stick was clearly taken some damage, was loose and hard to use.
[22:17:19] <aria> That is every n64 controller
[22:17:24] <aria> those stick lasted a total of 3 hours
[22:17:34] <aria> I have 6 controllers, all with broken sticks
[22:17:34] <Robobuntu> 6 controllers, can't lose!
[22:17:42] <Apsup> well well. I don't play Planetside 2 for few weeks and bam 6Gig patch. Luckly I don't have 5gig quota anymore.
[22:17:57] <aria> ...What the fuck is in that patch?!
[22:18:24] <bronzdragon> A new landmass
[22:19:47] <Apsup> Is it fun?
[22:20:13] <bronzdragon> I haven't played it beyond running around for 30 minutes trying to find a fight
[22:20:17] <Apsup> I grew bored of the snow pretty soon after it came out. Got enough of that in miliatary service
[22:20:26] <bronzdragon> If you like running around, then yes
[22:20:47] <aria> So do modern game companies not compress their textures and video anymore?
[22:21:40] <lukeburrage> We played on the N64 because five out of every 10 people had one, and there were loads of us that were kickass at GoldenEye. Very few people had PCs that were good for anything beyond Duke Nukem deathmatch.
[22:21:41] <Robobuntu> you can't every 10 people!
[22:22:06] <aria> Why didn't you play Mario Party?
[22:22:20] <lukeburrage> I don't think anyone owned Mario Party.
[22:22:46] <aria> Oh man, you were missing out!
[22:22:47] <bronzdragon> Do you kick people in DND?
[22:22:57] <lukeburrage> Everyone had GoldenEye, Mario Cart 64, Zelda 64 and Mario 64. A few people had some other games, but they were the top four by a huuuuuge margin.
[22:23:09] <lukeburrage> So I never played Mario Party.
[22:23:51] <aria> Mario kart
[22:23:55] <aria> With a K
[22:24:23] <lukeburrage> Whatever.
[22:24:37] <lukeburrage> Getting mixed up with game carts.
[22:24:40] <bronzdragon> Its important!
[22:25:05] <ProfPangloss|Work> Anyone know of noise-canceling earbuds (like the Etymotics MC5s), but with more durable cables?
[22:25:14] <lukeburrage> Bye! (bed)
[22:25:22] <aria> Skyrim is like 10gigs. Community Skyrim that looks a billion times better and loads a billion times quicker is like 300mb
[22:25:27] <ProfPangloss|Work> My year-old MC5s just had one ear die out 'cause the connection's loose.
[22:25:30] <aria> Night
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[22:26:37] <Apsup> Last summer we played quite a lot of Mario Party. I don't see what people see in that game. It's shit, there's million year of boring between minigames that are somewhat good, but nothing special.
[22:27:23] <bronzdragon> You have to play it as if you were watching sports though
[22:27:27] <aria> All players or some NPCs?
[22:27:31] <bronzdragon> go like "YEAH!" every time you get a star
[22:27:33] <aria> Cause if NPCs, you need to skip the NPCs
[22:27:40] <bronzdragon> or "AWW NOOOOO" every time you lose one
[22:28:33] <aria> But yes, it would be better if it was sped up a bit
[22:29:36] <Apsup> All players of course.
[22:31:21] <Apsup> We got some fun out of random bank system and other silliness of the game, but that got old at some point.
[22:31:34] <aria> Which Mario Party was it?
[22:32:17] <aria> Because no one likes the post 5 ones...
[22:34:15] <Apsup> I think we played two different mario paries, both for both for GameCube. 4 and 5 maybe?
[22:34:42] <aria> 4 is on n64 I believe
[22:34:46] <aria> I know 9 is the most recent one
[22:35:18] <Apsup> Wikipedia says that 4 was on GameCube.
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[22:36:24] <aria> You're right!
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[22:45:55] <creamsteak> close to hometime
[22:45:56] <creamsteak> yay
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[23:04:34] <spacejam> apparently i've been pinging google for 4 days
[23:04:54] <aria> Good job!
[23:05:02] <spacejam> do i get a chieve
[23:05:04] <spacejam> ?
[23:05:09] <aria> sure
[23:05:13] <spacejam> woohooo
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[23:15:45] <bronzdragon> Rawr!
[23:17:03] <aria> Apperantly Scott Rubin made nexusmods
[23:47:42] <aria> So 1000th episode of Kamen Rider this episode
[23:47:51] <aria> So far its pretty darn great
[23:48:08] <Apsup> So, should I go to sleep (boring decision) or should I play a round of NS2 (the fun decision)?
[23:48:26] <aria> Id sleep if there wasn't for excellent OOOs
[23:48:35] <aria> But OOOs are excellent, so OOOs it is
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